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wuzww
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Howdy..

Off subject..., but although the aquafiers are drying up... the oil wells are expanding..!!

Old ones are drying up, but with the NEW WAY to drill wells and turn the drill (pipe, drill bit, etc.), at a 90 degree angle,... allows multiple holes in 360 degree directions to be drilled from one location. Production then becomes increased beyond anything anyone would have imagined.. a decade ago..!

Heavy FRACKING... hydraulic shattering of formations underground... allows the oil (& gas) to be released and flow into the well bore to be recovered.

This is why natural gas is becoming so plentiful as well..!

If you're not or haven't been involved in the oil business, this might not make much sense to you, but what it means is...

The USA has huge amounts of new recoverable amounts of natural gas. AND along with the natural gas... comes oil.

Increasing oil prices will spur further increased USA development.. resulting in even more oil & natural gas..!

Hopefully..., maybe... if we really try,... we can quit wasting these resources and use other forms of energy..!

cheers wuzww :blink:

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Although I am not an expert on the oil subject I do know a bit about the subject. And let me emphasize I do know only a bit!

The problem with Fracking is it requires huge amounts of energy to get only a small percentage of oil that is actually usable....and even then that oil isn't ideal for the growing expanse of the world market.

30 years ago, most oil companies knew about Fracking, but would never have resorted to using it to get oil from those natural deposits since cheap, crude oil was available from the fields in Mexico and Saudi Arabia. The problem is, those oil wells are drying up now, less and less oil is being pumped out of them on an annual basis; the dregs are what we're getting, oil full of sediment and other impurities, and the ratio between these impurities and actual oiul is not looking in our favor. What this means is, again, more energy needs to be invested to get that oil, reducing our net yield of energy.

Because of this, oil companies are looking at new ways to secure oil such as the techniques you described above. The problem is, fracking and cracking require huge amounts of energy, infrastructure, and is overall a more complicated process. We're doing more, to get less! Lets not forget that fracking and cracking create much waste.....and this waste is, in turn, polluting our water and environment.

Now, you mentioned also, that natural gas is becoming more plentiful because of better pumping technologies (or at least you implied it). The fact that natural gas is becoming more plentiful is, in fact, pointing towards LESS oil available through a number of processes. I'll only go into one or two of them here. One is the very way that oil fields are laid out from a topological point of view. Natural gas sits on the bottom of the oil beds with the pressure of the light, cheap crude oil keeping it down. As we pump, that pressure decreases and decreases and this allows the natural gas to bubble up (and is pushing the oil up in the process too). The natural gas pushing the oil up is giving the illusion that there is still so much oil, but in fact its just inflation caused by the natural gases! These gas bubbles are "popping" more and more as a consequence of less and less pressure from the oil so the gases' ability to be harvested is getting easier and easier....as oil decreases! So this is why natural gas prices are dropping so much. (oh, and as an aside, natural gases are not going to be a potential source of energy due to the amunt of energy that must be invested t get a yield....this goes for ethanol too)

Now, to get natural gas you crack it, applying lots of heat to get the impunities away from the natural gas. To frack, you're applying heat and filtering to get oil from natural rock and sands. All of these processes require energy! And as the law of thermodynamics indicates, this will inevitably mean our net yield is decreasing and decreasing....a yield that the global economy thrives on. And these processes are also expensive. Oil companies knew about these sources almost 40 years ago but would have never used them because cheap, light,crude oil was readily available. Why are they now fracking and cracking? because the oil we want is decreasing and the numbers we get from oil fields are dropping rapidly.

Now, couple all of this with a booming industrial revolution going on in the so called "third world" and "developing" countries with a population taht is massive and you're going to see a problem. The global economy runs on cheap, light, curde oil....that's not what we're getting! More and more people are using cars and other machinery we have taken for granted for oh so long. I mean, look at the number of new car licenses issued in Beijing on a daily basis and you're going to have a squeamish belly.

Just one more point: hibberts curve! This guy way back in the 60s created a curve and he predicted U.S and Mexico oil yields will peak in the 70s and drop throughout the 90s. Well, history has proven him right. The oil yields we're getting from these fields are dropping. And it seems reasonable to assume right now that the fields in saudi arabia and russia are now experiencing their peaks....which won't last long now as oil demands are exponentially greater now than they were 30 years ago. Now here's a scary political fact.....because china, russia, and saudi has publicized their oil sources, the U.S and other western countries probably won't have sufficient access to these sources. These countries' governments control the oil fields, which is a different geo-political dynamic than was in the past (since such companies were predominantly privatized). This means the citizens of those countries will have access to the oil, while our supplies are dropping.

Jeff Rubin wrote a good book on the subject called Why Your World is About To Get a Whole Lot Smaller. And he is considered an expert on political energy relations. It's worth checking out.

And yes, I agree with you, we must start decreasing our reliance on these energy sources :blink:

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Good information but not sure I agree with your techniques of fracturing with heat! At any rate, as long as politicians are running the country, we will have issues and the oil industry will be portrayed as the villain. We are ignoring the natural gas abundance and trying to protect the frozen tundra as India and China start locking up oil contracts to meet their skyrocketing demands. After 32 years in this industry, it is now the next generations challenge. I'm going fishing!

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Living on top of what has been described as possibly the largest shale lodged deposit of natural gas in the world I can only say that fracking is wrought with disastrous implications for people and the environment.

Look up marcellus shale on google and you'll understand what I mean. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=marcellus+shale&aq=4&aqi=g1g-s1g8&aql=&oq=marcel)

Yes, some people could quite obviously get rich, but many counties in NY and PA have already banned fracking.

I have a relative who has a well and it has been rendered completely useless due to fracking because the water used hit his well.

Some people (and I've seen this firsthand) can actually produce a flame at their faucet due to natural gas seepage from fracking.

The only reason fracking has hit the news now is that they've discovered ways to do it and make a profit.

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Living on top of what has been described as possibly the largest shale lodged deposit of natural gas in the world I can only say that fracking is wrought with disastrous implications for people and the environment.

Look up marcellus shale on google and you'll understand what I mean. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=marcellus+shale&aq=4&aqi=g1g-s1g8&aql=&oq=marcel)

Yes, some people could quite obviously get rich, but many counties in NY and PA have already banned fracking.

I have a relative who has a well and it has been rendered completely useless due to fracking because the water used hit his well.

Some people (and I've seen this firsthand) can actually produce a flame at their faucet due to natural gas seepage from fracking.

The only reason fracking has hit the news now is that they've discovered ways to do it and make a profit.

I would suggest they have found ways to recover what was not recoverable years ago and manage to keep prices low. Fracturing is very expensive for operators so it is not all profit. I would suggest parking your car if you want to shut them down. No one wants to change their comforts of life...we have had cheap fuel for a long time! Wind energy isn't the answer...it is merely becoming an eye sore and one day soon, the maintenance will not be worth the small energy it generates...and we will have a landscape covered in old abandoned wind generators "off line". There is no easy solution!

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I would suggest they have found ways to recover what was not recoverable years ago and manage to keep prices low. Fracturing is very expensive for operators so it is not all profit. I would suggest parking your car if you want to shut them down. No one wants to change their comforts of life...we have had cheap fuel for a long time! Wind energy isn't the answer...it is merely becoming an eye sore and one day soon, the maintenance will not be worth the small energy it generates...and we will have a landscape covered in old abandoned wind generators "off line". There is no easy solution!

You're right, there is no easy solution. I suspect in order to meet our energy needs in a sustainable fashion, we'll have to use a combination of different energy sources.

Part of the problem has to do with subsidies and externalities. An externality is simply a product or service where the cost or benefits of that good/service is shunted off to another party and neither affects the producer's costs or decisions to produce. Oil is a huge externality, with the costs being diffused through a number of subsidies.

I think 3 things will have to happen in order for us to be sustainable: 1. find an alternative energy source (which won't be ethanol or any natural gas at least with present technology); increase efficiency for already existing energy sources (since current energy yields are at about 13% efficiency with oil); and 3, making sure the costs are not external and subsidies are kept to a minimum -- in other words, keep the benefits away from consumers and keep producers liable.

In order for any progress to happen consumers are going to eventually have to change their way of life, as well as government policies will have to change. Furthermore, any energy saving benefits will have to be implemented in a way that the consumers do not benefit directly. For instance, cars nowadays use more energy (and thus oil) than their less energy efficient counterparts 30 years ago. How could this happen you ask? Well, it's true that cars these days get more miles/unit of fuel, but the energy saved is going to other things such as media players in cars, air conditioning/ heating, video game consoles, sliding windows and other luxuries. Ironically, the fact we're getting more energy efficient means we're using more of it! Benefits must be kept away from the consumers, at least initially.

And yes, fracking is a terrible process. Cracking isn't all its cracked up to be either. Oil refineries these days have more air pollution from these processes than has ever been seen before. More and more workers in oil refineries and pumps are seeing an increase in respiratory problems :)

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Howdy, Byte King,

my friend... I'm certain you mean well... but your initial statement probably explains your confusion..

"Although I am not an expert on the oil subject I do know a bit about the subject. And let me emphasize I do know only a bit!"

I'm unsure where you're getting most of your information, but although some of it is corrrect, quite of bit is absolutely not...!

The news media often reports on oil companies, but unfortunately, just as in aircraft accidents... The reporter is not knowledgeable about

the subject on which they are reporting... This leads to MIS-INFORMATION and PERPRETATION of more MIS-INFORMATION...!

...A silly saying or quote comes to mine... (no disrespect to blind persons intended..)

"It's like the blind leading the blind..!"

I don't wish to seem unfriendly, and I'm certainly not trying to be so..!, ...but I do want to point out some of the inaccuracies in your post...!

First, you are right... fracking does cost a lot of money! ...But because frac jobs ARE COSTLY, oil companies wouldn't use fracs if they weren't necessary.

Fracks (short for fracture) are done by companies like Haliburton who use very powerful pumps to hydraulically frac the formations.

(and they certainly don't give their services away, because the equipment, trucks, tanks and pumps, etc. are expensive.)

...But the amount of energy used is certainly not huge. ...It's actually quite a small amount. A truck hauling freight will use more energy if it travels very far.

(The engines do not run very long, because this is a fairly fast process.)

NO FIRES are used underground. You are confusing other methods of oil extraction... not fracking...

Oil companies have been fracing wells for over 60years.

And admittedly some oil companies have been negligent by fracing formations near fresh water sands, resulting in contamination of fresh water supplies. Most of these incidents are in shallow formations, and admittedly should never have even been attempted.

Deeper fracking will not contaminate fresh water zones.

Fracking does NOT create waste.

It is done in oil producing formations, far underground. It only shatters the formations, to make them more porous, so oil and gas can be recovered. Various formulations are used in the hydraulic fracing proceedure, including special types of sand, which flow along with the hydraulic liquid that is fracturing the formations. The sand then stays in the formations, effectively holding the cracks open to allow oil and gas to flow.

Other companies who negligently did not properly cement the casing through the fresh water formations, and/or abandoned old wells without properly cementing (plugging) them before capping them, also have ashamedly caused fresh water source contamination. A lot of this (now illegal) activity took place before there were any regulations.

We are not getting dregs of oil.

This would imply a pool or tank or whatever of oil that has impurities that have settled to the bottom.

Oil lies in sand and shale formations, not pockets or pools. Production from a new well or old well can and does have impurities that must be removed in the refining process. Many of these "impurities" are valuable and are sold to be used in industry.

If you've heard something about oil dregs, it no doubt was referring to oil in the bottom of a storage tank contining impurities that have settled to the bottom.

Your understanding that "gas bubbles are 'popping' more and more as a consequence of less and less pressure from the oil, so the gases' ability to be harvested is getting easier and easier...as the oil decreases", is SIMPLY UNTRUE... and is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what is happening.

To explain... First the oil is UNDER the gas, which is lighter than the oil.

If the operator wants the to first produce oil, not the gas, (which is ALMOST ALWAYS how it is done), then the producing pipe is perforated BELOW the upper part of the formation, so as to avoid the gas, and use the gas pressure to push down on the oil, causing it to flow through the pipe perforations into and upwards in the pipe to be harvested... (this is called a flowing oil well). The oil presssure is NOT caused by oil, but instead is caused by gas. Often in pushing the oil, some gas will flow down through the oil and be produced along with the oil. As the oil is depleted, of course, more gas (if still remaining) will be produced, but in a well that is primarily an oil well, the gas will be more quickly depleted, and so it becomes necessary to produce the oil with a pump-jack.

For countless decades, oil & gas wells were drilled vertically. Production came from one single vertical well.

More recently with the development of horizontal drilling, a great deal more of the oil in the producing formation can now be recovered. Many wells can now be drilled horizontally from one vertical drill site. Each of those horizontal holes can be fracked and therefore a huge area can be produced from the one virtical well. (This knowledge and technology was NOT KNOWN or available just a few years ago.)

The amount of oil and gas that can now be produce in the United States has VASTLY INCREASED, due to the new drilling and modern fracing methods. This is why our oil and gas reserves have and are rapidly increasing. We NO LONGER need to import gas, but instead several contracts have and are being signed and negotiated to export gas. Chinere Energy (stock symbol: LNG) is a new player in gas exportation. They have a new facility in Louisiana... (The only one in the US than can handle 2 tankers at the same time.)

You were right in saying that oil companies have for many years, known that there are VAST UNPRODUCED QUANTIES of oil & gas in the USA, but as in tight shale, there was really no known reasonable way get the shale to release the hydrocarbons, short of mining the shale. They simply didn't know how..!

This is why that today companies are scrambling to lease and produce hydrocarbons from the shale properties.

I'm an old man, with a lot of experience in the oil & gas business, which is why I respectfully wanted to correct misunderstandings so they won't be taken and repeated as fact.

I wish you well my friend.. :wacko: wuzww

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Howdy, Byte King, :blink:

May I say in a friendly way... :angry:

It's my opinion... that if you are going to make statements that are presented as fact... you should do a little research.

...but beware of some of the outrageous theories, claims & statements of various "sources" on the internet.

We all know those can be anything... from the factual to the totally absurd & misleading...!

There are oil companies that lease, organize.. and/or cause the well to be drilled.. and drilling co's.. who only contract to drill the well. ...then there are many service co's, ...but for purposes of this post.. I'm talking about fracking companies.

When You do the research, why not (as in this case) make a phone call, or two, to an engineer working for some of the companies that actually are in the business and doing the frack work. Several service companies are in the business of servicing the companies searching for oil... (Frack servicing companies are like Haliburton (Oklahoma City #405.231-1800 & their main # in Houston is 281.575-3000), and two others are Schlumberger (phone713.513-2000), and BJ Services (phone #713.860-6801) ..Simply call & ask what they actually do... & how a frac job is performed.

I also don't understand the part of your post that said... "now, to get natural gas you crack it, applying lots of heat to get the impunities away from the natural gas. To frack, you're applying heat and filtering to get oil from natural rock and sands." ??

You must be referring to the refining process..(after the oil or gas has been extracted from the ground?) ...If not, please explain what you mean by crack it and applying lots of heat, and filtering ...these things are NOT DONE UNDER THE GROUND..!

...But they are ALWAYS used in the refining process to produce useable products that we all use in everyday life.. (;ie plastics... gasoline... diesel fuel... medical supplies... road materials... clothing.. and the list goes on...)

As in every profession, there are bad actors.. but most are NOT... and we NEED OIL.. and not just for gasoline..!

The oil business was not my main occupation, during most of my life, ...but frequently I worked in the oil business (part of the time I was very involved & invested in the oil business), and as a young man, I worked on drilling rigs, workover rigs, etc., so I have a considerable amount of experience and knowledge about it.

..Now I'm only involved with the oil companies through stocks on the stock market.

As I explained, I don't have to do any research about proceedures involving the drilling oil wells, frack jobs, etc.

I'm over 70 years old...and I've LIVED IT..!

...but I got to thinking..! Golly Gee! ...maybe I'm wrong... Maybe there is something new being done that I'm unaware of...

...OK, so I called Halliburton... Got in touch with one on their engineers.. explained this whole thing to him and asked him if if they were doing some new proceedure that I was unaware of... He laughed and said no... you've got it rite...!

cheers.. wuzww :wacko:

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Howdy, Byte King, :(

May I say in a friendly way... :(

It's my opinion... that if you are going to make statements that are presented as fact... you should do a little research.

...but beware of some of the outrageous theories, claims & statements of various "sources" on the internet.

We all know those can be anything... from the factual to the totally absurd & misleading...!

There are oil companies that lease, organize.. and/or cause the well to be drilled.. and drilling co's.. who only contract to drill the well. ...then there are many service co's, ...but for purposes of this post.. I'm talking about fracking companies.

When You do the research, why not (as in this case) make a phone call, or two, to an engineer working for some of the companies that actually are in the business and doing the frack work. Several service companies are in the business of servicing the companies searching for oil... (Frack servicing companies are like Haliburton (Oklahoma City #405.231-1800 & their main # in Houston is 281.575-3000), and two others are Schlumberger (phone713.513-2000), and BJ Services (phone #713.860-6801) ..Simply call & ask what they actually do... & how a frac job is performed.

I also don't understand the part of your post that said... "now, to get natural gas you crack it, applying lots of heat to get the impunities away from the natural gas. To frack, you're applying heat and filtering to get oil from natural rock and sands." ??

You must be referring to the refining process..(after the oil or gas has been extracted from the ground?) ...If not, please explain what you mean by crack it and applying lots of heat, and filtering ...these things are NOT DONE UNDER THE GROUND..!

...But they are ALWAYS used in the refining process to produce useable products that we all use in everyday life.. (;ie plastics... gasoline... diesel fuel... medical supplies... road materials... clothing.. and the list goes on...)

As in every profession, there are bad actors.. but most are NOT... and we NEED OIL.. and not just for gasoline..!

The oil business was not my main occupation, during most of my life, ...but frequently I worked in the oil business (part of the time I was very involved & invested in the oil business), and as a young man, I worked on drilling rigs, workover rigs, etc., so I have a considerable amount of experience and knowledge about it.

..Now I'm only involved with the oil companies through stocks on the stock market.

As I explained, I don't have to do any research about proceedures involving the drilling oil wells, frack jobs, etc.

I'm over 70 years old...and I've LIVED IT..!

...but I got to thinking..! Golly Gee! ...maybe I'm wrong... Maybe there is something new being done that I'm unaware of...

...OK, so I called Halliburton... Got in touch with one on their engineers.. explained this whole thing to him and asked him if if they were doing some new proceedure that I was unaware of... He laughed and said no... you've got it rite...!

cheers.. wuzww :angry:

I love a good debate, it really gets the brain juices flowing :wacko:

Well, any inaccuracies I have stated are admittedly an artifact of my own "reconstructive" remembering.

Most of the info I have stated come from a politics of the environment course I am currently taking and even if I have gotten the small details wrong (sorry about that), my main points I believe are valid.

Yeah, I'm no expert and I don't claim to be, but if you're interested I can give you the names of the books and articles I have read and am quite interested to know what you think. Some of these sources are quite old, but allot of them are very up to date.

So, all I know is what I learnt from one class, so I think I'll just let the info speak for themselves instead of relying on reconstrutive memory (especially since political science is not my area of study. It's actually rehabilitative neuroscience). If you're interested, I'll PM you the info, some of it is pretty dry haha. Specifically, allot of what I said about oil comes from Why Your World is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller by Jeff Rubin, and a article on ecological modernisation. The Rubbin book is quite interesting and very easy to read and he goes into some details in the first 3 chapters as to why and how fracking and cracking are not sustainable.

Oh, and about fracking. In absolute terms, yes it uses very little energy energy, but when other variables are taken into account such as the scale needed to support our energy needs and actual transport of the material to the fracking plants, and than transport of the product to where it needs to be, it quickly becomes an inefficent process. Couple this with energy consumption rates as they are currently and the growth of the world market with the laws of thermodynamics and one sees fracking can consume lots of energy by virtue of scale alone to produce the product needed. Or, at least, to my understanding ;)

:blink:

Edit: sorry, one last thing I wanted to ask you, you supposedly contradicted yourself, my friend. You said Fracking causes no wast, but your point above has admitted that water supplies have been contaminated. How can contamination happen with no waste? Can you clarify? Thanks.

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Howdy Byte_King... :)

Ha. ha.

I Enjoyed your reply.

You make a good point about the transporting of the fracking materials, pumps, etc., but still the amount of energy expended is very small.

The amount of hydrocarbons recovered from fracking hydrocarbon formations is HUGE..!

...and that's why oil companies spend the money to do it.

They are "usually" not fools, and most don't like spending money.

Cutting corners to save money... is how BP screwed up and made such a mess in the gulf.

(I could tell you a lot more about that deal, but that's another story and it takes awhile.)

Your sources describing dwindling hydrocarbon production and reserves, were correct AS OF 3 or 4 years ago,

but those statements & observations are no longer correct.

The formerly unforseen technological developments were oil & gas companies' hopes and dreams.

...But due to successful ideas and innovations,....The situation HAS BEEN ABRUPTLY reversed...!

We are now AWASH in natural gas...

That's why the price of natural gas dropped so much. ...But now the price is rising again.

(I think this cold winter is the main reason.)

The same thing is happening with oil. ...Oil drilling is expanding rapidly and proven reserves are exploding..!

An explaination of what occurred, ...and is now happening is made clearer in the following interview:

Below is a link to Cramer's inverview Monday, 1-31-2011, with Aubrey McClendon, the Chairman & CEO of Chesapeak Energy, (stock symbol CHK)....

(Chesapeak is 2nd. largest producer of natural gas, and is in the top 20 producers of oil.)

(..It's not a very long interview, but it is quite good and plainly articulated.)

http://maddmoney.net/jim-cramers-ceo-inter...tion-nysechk-2/

If you multiply the number of companies using the new drilling technology by the number of companies trying to find oil,...

like Chesapeak, Sandridge, Continental, etc., etc. (not counting the "big dogs" like Exxon, etc.) all of whom are increasing their efforts to find oil, due the increasing prices...

It becomes increasingly clear how the number of large new oil wells are vastly increasing the known oil reserves.

...And this is happening, today..!

The USA is changing from a country with dwindling reserves to a country with huge expanding oil reserves..!

I'm really glad this is happening. It will create lots of new jobs, ...saving dollars and even reversing the flow of dollars back into the USA.

But I hope it doesn't divert our attention and direction away from developing new sources of energy.

Oil and oil derivatives and by-products are in nearly everything we use today.

It is a shame to use oil to make gasoline & diesel fuel.

cheers... wuzww :)

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Edit: sorry, one last thing I wanted to ask you, you supposedly contradicted yourself, my friend. You said Fracking causes no wast, but your point above has admitted that water supplies have been contaminated. How can contamination happen with no waste? Can you clarify? Thanks.

Oops..! :)

I didn't see your "edit" comment that you put on your post later... and since I've apparently not posted on THIS FORUM enough times to be allowed to "edit" my post, I guess I've just "gotta" make another post.. :)

The contaminated water supplies that I referred to were "accidents" ...Perpetrated by folish, ignorant or negligent operators.

(perhaps "AND" rather than "OR")

Those "accidental contaminations... NEVER should have happened...!

BTW FWI Not all fracking is done to recover hydrocarbons...!

...Water zones are sometimes intentionally frac'd to expand the fresh water supply zone!

Oil & Gas well fracing should NEVER be attempted near any fresh water zone, precisely because of the danger of the frac invading the fresh water zone. In my opinion, such occurrences, ...folish, ignorant or negligent are CRIMINAL..!

Contamination and waste do not have to "go together".

Most fluids used in fracking are not wasted, but are recovered and used again in one way or another.

The primarily used "fracking fluids" are water or oil.

If oil is used, it is simply recovered and used again or sent to a refinery.

If water is used, it is recovered after the frac, and it is re-used again and again.

This is not only good business practices, but environmental rules require it..!

Water, if used, can be any kind of water. It can be waste water from other wells which are producing salt water along with oil, ...or water from other sources, including fresh water.

If fracking was not done ALL OVER THE WORLD... There would be VERY LITTLE OIL. Not even enough for making the plastics we use in the USA, let alone all of the other products... and certainly not enough for fuel.

So you are right saying water would be contaminated, but no more so than in homes, industries, etc. Heck when you use the toilet.. or take a shower ...wash dishes, etc., you are contaminating the water, which in most cases is fresh drinkable water.

And of course, water is used in all forms of manufacturing. ...And during it's use it is contaminated...!

but It doesn't need to be (and should not be ) ...wasted.

cheers.. wuzww :)

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