Discrimination is a virus

[milanr66]

A few days ago I spoke to this forum in two places 1) I have identified one rare and a new virus and I notified the engineers about it 2) I asked for help to remove the virus concerned. During the exchange of logs, one of the administrators noticed that on my computer there are some pirated software. He informed me of the policy of this forum to piracy and turned off my theme. The administrator explained that those who have pirated software on their computers, will get no help from this forum. Ok.

I continued my conversation with engineers online, not for help for me, understanding that providing additional information about the behavior of the virus, help forums, companies and the entire community of computer users. However, the same administrator appeared on the subject, informed me that the forum "does not endorse" piracy. In this regard:

1) I'm not a criminal. If I am, please let someone prosecuted in legal proceedings, and if not, please do not treat me like I'm a criminal.
2) This forum, as I understand it, is not a private club, but this is a public forum. If the public, and any sanction distinction between members on the basis of "policy" that is not the law, is discrimination. Please, do not discriminate. I'm human just like you and I have my human rights.
3) I understand that this organization is fighting the viruses, not fighting piracy. Now, if you refuse to help someone because "pirate" it is as if a doctor refuses to treat someone because it is ideologically different. It is also discrimination. Please,that certain unnamed administrator to review his attitudes and use his "policy" so as not to come into a state of exaggeration.

Finally, I bought this computer used, not sure what all of the programs it has. You know, some people do not have money to buy a new computer. Some people have to buy the used computer.

Thank you for your attention.

[AdvancedSetup]

Yes I closed your topics. 

 

A couple of points. 

 

1. No one accused you of being a criminal, only that you have indications of pirated software on the system.  Whether by fault of yours or not was not said one way or another.
2. This is not a public forum - not sure there really are any true public forums.  This is a privately owned business forum where we do assist the public but that gives you no specific "rights" to post or not to post and has nothing to do with human rights,  and piracy is not covered under any discrimination laws either.  You were not accused of anything.
3. The Piracy policy does basically say that we will give you the opportunity to remove said software. 

 

You never asked or came back and said you would remove it thus at least on the surface it would appear that you have no intent to remove said software.

If you do agree to remove ALL pirated software now that you know it's there (or may be others) then we will assist you.  But if further evidence of pirated software is again found then we will cease to assist you.

 

Piracy

 

We will not assist users that are obviously using illegal software.

If any such evidence is found you will be given the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to completely uninstall and delete any such data from your system.

During the scanning process if any further evidence shows up your topic will be closed and no further assistance will be provided.

If you're using Peer 2 Peer software such as uTorrent or similar you must either fully uninstall it or completely disable it from running while being assisted here.
Failure to remove or disable such software will result in your topic being closed and no further assistance being provided.

 

[milanr66]

First of all, thank you for answering.

1) You closed my second conversation in which I am not ask for any assistance, but as a general communication with the engineer. Your quote about piracy only mentions the case of assistance. I'm not the engineer asked for any assistance. It would be as if you now close this conversation.

2) To remove traces of pirated software on this computer, obviously I had to format my drive. It is a huge operation. I can not do it in this moment. So I do not expect help. However, I expect to be able to talk about viruses on this forum and I expect that no one chasing me.

Finally, I do not even know what it exactly means to be a pirate. I'm not a pirate. But what's done is done.

[David H. Lipman]

Some important points worth noting...

 

1. There was no discrimination here.  Software piracy or Intellectual Property Theft in general is a blight on society.  Malwarebytes provides a service via this web site and has few restrictions.  But, it does have one major restriction, If there are signs that software has been implemented on a computer where the the computer owner may not have obtained proper use of software through what is known as "software piracy" that assistance can and will be withdrawn.
2. All viruses are malware but not all malware are viruses. It is a misperception that the overarching concept of all malicious software is that of a "virus".  Not true.  The overarching concept of all malicious software is "malware.  This forum is not fighting viruses per se, it is fighting non viral malware that exhibits itself mostly as trojan activity.
3. The Malwarebytes' forum (as Ron has indicated) is a private entity not a public entity.  Its goal is to support the myriad of Malwarebytes' software and utilities and assist those who are infected as long as there is no software piracy under a variation of the "Clean Hands Doctrine".
4. Whenever a person buys a used computer, it is incumbent upon the purchaser to wipe the PC in question and reinstall the OS of desire from scratch.  This mitigates the possibility of nefarious actions left over from the previous owner and the new owner gets a computer which is now "Plain Jane" where the new owner gets a pristine computer where the new owner can mold it into a system that best suits the new owner and is not inheriting and adapting one that was molded to the aspirations of the previous owner.
5. Removing pirated software does NOT mean the computer has to be wiped and the OS of choice re-installed but since this is a used computer said action would be the *BEST* option.

[milanr66]

I sincerely thank you for your advice in good faith.

[NoPiracy]

 

A few days ago I spoke to this forum in two places 1) I have identified one rare and a new virus and I notified the engineers about it 2) I asked for help to remove the virus concerned. During the exchange of logs, one of the administrators noticed that on my computer there are some pirated software. He informed me of the policy of this forum to piracy and turned off my theme. The administrator explained that those who have pirated software on their computers, will get no help from this forum. Ok.

I continued my conversation with engineers online, not for help for me, understanding that providing additional information about the behavior of the virus, help forums, companies and the entire community of computer users. However, the same administrator appeared on the subject, informed me that the forum "does not endorse" piracy. In this regard:

1) I'm not a criminal. If I am, please let someone prosecuted in legal proceedings, and if not, please do not treat me like I'm a criminal.
2) This forum, as I understand it, is not a private club, but this is a public forum. If the public, and any sanction distinction between members on the basis of "policy" that is not the law, is discrimination. Please, do not discriminate. I'm human just like you and I have my human rights.
3) I understand that this organization is fighting the viruses, not fighting piracy. Now, if you refuse to help someone because "pirate" it is as if a doctor refuses to treat someone because it is ideologically different. It is also discrimination. Please,that certain unnamed administrator to review his attitudes and use his "policy" so as not to come into a state of exaggeration.

Finally, I bought this computer used, not sure what all of the programs it has. You know, some people do not have money to buy a new computer. Some people have to buy the used computer.

Thank you for your attention.

 

@milanr66: Think software piracy is a crime with no victim? – Think again. Illegal software use costs developers worldwide over $50 billion a year in lost revenues. Don’t participate in piracy and report any piracy you see to the BSA: http://nopiracy.net/ZCB0LL.

 

Yes I closed your topics. 

 

A couple of points. 

 

1. No one accused you of being a criminal, only that you have indications of pirated software on the system.  Whether by fault of yours or not was not said one way or another.
2. This is not a public forum - not sure there really are any true public forums.  This is a privately owned business forum where we do assist the public but that gives you no specific "rights" to post or not to post and has nothing to do with human rights,  and piracy is not covered under any discrimination laws either.  You were not accused of anything.
3. The Piracy policy does basically say that we will give you the opportunity to remove said software. 

 

You never asked or came back and said you would remove it thus at least on the surface it would appear that you have no intent to remove said software.

If you do agree to remove ALL pirated software now that you know it's there (or may be others) then we will assist you.  But if further evidence of pirated software is again found then we will cease to assist you.

 

Piracy

 

 

 

Some important points worth noting...

 

1. There was no discrimination here.  Software piracy or Intellectual Property Theft in general is a blight on society.  Malwarebytes provides a service via this web site and has few restrictions.  But, it does have one major restriction, If there are signs that software has been implemented on a computer where the the computer owner may not have obtained proper use of software through what is known as "software piracy" that assistance can and will be withdrawn.
2. All viruses are malware but not all malware are viruses. It is a misperception that the overarching concept of all malicious software is that of a "virus".  Not true.  The overarching concept of all malicious software is "malware.  This forum is not fighting viruses per se, it is fighting non viral malware that exhibits itself mostly as trojan activity.
3. The Malwarebytes' forum (as Ron has indicated) is a private entity not a public entity.  Its goal is to support the myriad of Malwarebytes' software and utilities and assist those who are infected as long as there is no software piracy under a variation of the "Clean Hands Doctrine".
4. Whenever a person buys a used computer, it is incumbent upon the purchaser to wipe the PC in question and reinstall the OS of desire from scratch.  This mitigates the possibility of nefarious actions left over from the previous owner and the new owner gets a computer which is now "Plain Jane" where the new owner gets a pristine computer where the new owner can mold it into a system that best suits the new owner and is not inheriting and adapting one that was molded to the aspirations of the previous owner.
5. Removing pirated software does NOT mean the computer has to be wiped and the OS of choice re-installed but since this is a used computer said action would be the *BEST* option.

 

 

@AdvancedSetup & @David H. Lipman: Thanks for discouraging piracy! It is not only unfair to the developers, but it takes a huge toll on our economy. Take it one step further and spread the word that people can help curb this issue by reporting corporate software piracy to the BSA: http://nopiracy.net/ZCB0LL

[David H. Lipman]

NoPiracy:

I totally agree with your stance on Software Piracy.

 

However we also must be careful in that we don't vilify milanr66 as he has indicated he bought a "used computer" and thus he may not have conducted acts of software piracy but inherited a system that was the subject thereof.  I think milanr66 must have the benefit of doubt in this issue and I hope he takes my advice to heart where I wrote... "Removing pirated software does NOT mean the computer has to be wiped and the OS of choice re-installed but since this is a used computer said action would be the *BEST* option."

[CWB]

to add to what advancedsetup and dhl wrote ...

all members in these forums are treated equally ... discrimination is about the furthest thing from the minds that frequent these forums and offer help in sundry manners (well , excluding the occasional wing-nut) .

based on my experiences here , i would bet dollars to donuts that if indeed someone were to behave in a discriminatory manner they would quickly find themselves "bounced to the curb" .

there are no "witch hunts" going on here ... a person is kindly asked to remove certain types of software , if this does not happen then no further help is proffered .

it is a pretty simple , easy to understand and straight forward policy (politicians might take a lesson from this) .

 

case in point :

if memory serves me correctly ... i was working on a machine for a friend , i was asked by the "helper" in the HJT section to remove an offending program .

i had no idea the pirated software was present .

my friend was not a happy camper when i told him i got rid of the program .

your experience and mine are similar , the major difference is that you own your machine and i was helping a friend ; we were both innocuous in the situations .

[milanr66]

Ok, I see.

 

If you insist... Rather than advertise "here is no discrimination, there is no discrimination," as it would be to exchange some arguments?

 

First, what is discrimination? "Discrimination is the prejudicial and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated"."

 

So this forum activity is related to the virus. This is a such as a shop. I come to shop and wear on my lapel bedž that says "I am a pirate." The saleswoman is ready to serve me but then, suddenly, see the badge on my lapel. "I'm sorry sir, we're not serve people who wear the badge and who are members of that group," said a seller.

 

So the work of the company, other than the core business, there is a supplement. The supplement is called "politics." Suddenly, the company activity against viruses, joins the fight against piracy. It seems on the basis of their individual decisions and not based on any law.

 

You have introduced a moral sanction against someone who has pirated software. The sanctions lead to different treatment of people of your choice, not by law.

Are we absolutely sure that this is not discrimination?

[CWB]

i suppose one could view any and all types of "filtering" based on god-knows-what as discriminatory , however , one has to draw a line *somewhere* .

i will not and can not speak for this company nor the policies that it adheres to and enforces .

as it stands , i believe this conversation is getting into "sematics" that will ultimately be a moot point as the policies of this company clearly have been stated/outlined and will be adhered to .

 

as i discovered in life : it is a matter of respect and honor .

my father used to say to me : "my house , my rules ... if you don't like them then there's the door" .

mind you , this was also said after my tour in the army and dodging bullets (i was waiting to rent a house that was being fixed up) .

 

when i work on a comp for a friend (it does not matter which friend it is ... period) i make clear some very simple "rules" :

(1) : any and all malware and related programs will be removed in their entirety

(2) : any and all virus and related items will be removed from the machine in question

(3) : any and all illegally obtained , illicit or programs known as "pirated" will be removed

 

there are two main reasons for the above .

(1) : such programs are a known and proved vector for/means of infections and unless they are removed constant re-infection can and will happen .

(setting a broken leg does but little good if the fracture is allowed to become gangrenous)

 

(2) : once i know something , i am responsible for that knowledge .

there is no "weasel clause" for this one .

by letter of law and as a moral issue , this is not something that i cannot and i will not attempt to circumvent .

i certainly have no desire to be an "accessory after the fact" ...

 

such as they guy who was driving the car for the guy that robbed the bank :

"but yer honor , he said he was going to make a withdrawal ... i did not know he was going to rob the place"

the judge says : "so , you mean to say you didn't notice the gun ?"

"no yer honor ... i guess it was in his pocket or something like that ."

"well sir , what about that note he was writing while you were driving to the bank , the one that , as you said , might have read ""place all the money in this bag" ?"

"yes yer honor , i will admit that it sort of looked like it was something suspicious ."

"and what about the security camera tape footage that clearly shows you opening the door of the car that was parked in front of the bank as the suspect ran up to the car while firing shots at the bank guards that were clearly in pursuit of him ..." .

"yer honor , those actions might seem condemning but i only opened the door out of courtesy , after all , it was his car and his hands were full and he sure looked busy . i assure you i had no idea that he had robbed the bank ..."

"yeah , riiiiggghhht ... that will be 15 years for "accessory to armed bank robbery" and a $25 dollar fine for "parking in a no-parking zone" ."

[milanr66]

My dear friend.

 

If someone does not get to drink water in your house, because he had pirated software on his computer - no doubt, that is discrimination.

There is no difference between this one came for water or medical assistance or help with viruses. If the screening is done on the basis of belonging to any group, it is discrimination.

For example, the drug is prohibited by law. Even her possession. Addict has severe dark circles. You refuse to give him water to drink, because you recognize that he is a drug addict - that's discrimination.

[David H. Lipman]

OK, this is getting weird.

 

Discrimination - the prejudicial and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated."^[1] It involves the group's initial reaction or interaction, influencing the individual's actual behavior towards the group or the group leader, restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that are available to another group, leading to the exclusion of the individual or entities based on logical or irrational decision making.

 

That's NOT what's going on here as I mentioned it is a variation of the "Clean Hands Doctrine".

 

Unclean hands, sometimes called the clean hands doctrine or the dirty hands doctrine, is an equitable defense in which the defendant argues that the plaintiff is not entitled to obtain an equitable remedy on account of the fact that the plaintiff is acting unethically or has acted in bad faith with respect to the subject of the complaint—that is, with "unclean hands".^[2] The defendant has the burden of proof to show the plaintiff is not acting in good faith. The doctrine is often stated as "those seeking equity must do equity" or "equity must come with clean hands".

A defendant's unclean hands can also be claimed and proven by the plaintiff to claim other equitable remedies and to prevent that defendant from asserting equitable affirmative defenses. In other words, 'unclean hands' can be used offensively by the plaintiff as well as defensively by the defendant. Historically, the doctrine of unclean hands can be traced as far back as the Fourth Lateran Council.

 

Now we are not talking about law and we are not in a court.  However if one has directly pirated software or their system shows that there is pirated software upon it and one comes to the Malwarebytes' forum seeking relief from a malware infection, the person is considered to have "unclean hands".  Software piracy is an unethical act.  Like a plaintiff who seeks relief from a defendant in a court for the perception of or the actuality of being wronged by the defendant, an infected user comes to Malwarebytes seeking relief from malware due to wrongfulness of the action of malware.  If one comes to Malwarebytes with "unclean hands" due to one having directly pirated software or their system shows that there is pirated software upon it and they seeking relief, Malwarebytes's will not provide assistance as the act of piracy is unethical and they have not come to Malwarebytes in "Good Faith".  However...  Good Faith can be restored by remediating pirated software.

 

As a malware researcher I can testify that I have come across numerous legitimate software installers that have been deliberately repackaged to contain both a keygen or crack and malware.  Most often they were trojan downloaders. The repackaged programs were clearly identified as a crack or keygen for that application.  Therefore it can also be construed that due to the unethical behaviour of those who have pirated software, they have brought this malicious software activity upon themselves.

[milanr66]

Let's be clear here.

 

You say: "If you do not have pirated software, we will help you, but if you have pirated software, then we will not help."

Consider the second sentence: "If you're not a pedophile, then we'll bend the wound, and if you pedophile, then we will not bend the wound."

What is difference?

But let's look at the following sentence: "If you need help, I'll help you." This is the only position that is not discrimination.

[exile360]

We will help anyone with pirated software, they simply need to remove it first. We do not simply turn them away, because we do want to help.

[milanr66]

We will help anyone with pirated software, they simply need to remove it first. We do not simply turn them away, because we do want to help.

 

I think we've finally come to a correct and legitimate position. I hope that the administrators consider this a fruitful and fair discussion useful.

Thanks to all who have devoted time and attention to this debate.

[exile360]

I think we've finally come to a correct and legitimate position. I hope that the administrators consider this a fruitful and fair discussion useful.

Thanks to all who have devoted time and attention to this debate.

You're welcome, and thank you for your patience, understanding and willingness to hear us out with regards to our policy.